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Episode 9

Designing Inclusive Spaces with Tom Gray MCIAT and Fern Lulham | 009

Welcome to Where it's AT | the Architectural Technology Podcast

In this episode hosted by Tom Gray MCIAT, Chartered Architectural Technologist, the conversation centres on inclusive design and its emotional and functional impacts on people with disabilities. Guest, psychotherapist, speaker, and BBC broadcaster Fern Lulham, who is blind, shares her experiences growing up with messages of resilience and equality but notes the practical challenges and emotional toll of navigating spaces not designed with accessibility in mind. The discussion extends to the need for creativity, courage, and connection in architectural design, emphasising that thoughtful design should empower and include everyone. Fern and Tom also discuss specific examples like public toilets and airport wayfinding to highlight how design decisions can significantly affect the lives and self-esteem of people with disabilities.

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00:00 Introduction

01:00 Guest Introduction: Fern Lulham

01:52 Messages from Childhood

02:59 Navigating the World Differently

05:53 Loneliness and Ideal Self

10:28 Challenges in the Built Environment

18:37 The Importance of Inclusive Design

25:39 Final Thoughts and Closing

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Key Takeaways

Inclusive Design Benefits Everyone: Designing spaces that are accessible to all people, including those with disabilities, helps everyone feel welcome and valued. It’s not just about meeting practical needs but ensuring that everyone can participate equally.

Emotional Impact of Design: The way a space is designed can greatly affect a person's self-esteem and confidence. Poorly designed environments can make people feel excluded and frustrated, while thoughtful design can foster a sense of belonging and independence.

Curiosity and Courage in Design: Designers should always be open to new ways of thinking and not be afraid to try different approaches. Collaborating with those who have different experiences, such as people with disabilities, can lead to better and more inclusive solutions.

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Know someone with a story to tell or a topic to explore?  Email us at atpodcast@ciat.global to nominate a guest or a topic.

Want to learn more about Architectural Technology, how to progress your career, or how to work with a Chartered AT?  Head to architecturaltechnology.com to find out more

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Podcast recorded and edited by: Jon Clayton [Podcasting]

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Disclaimer

The contents and views expressed by individuals in the Where it's AT podcast are their own, and do not necessarily represent the views of the companies they work for or the Host. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered as advice.

Transcript
Fern Lulham:

That makes the difference between me effortlessly being able to

Fern Lulham:

cross the road and feeling like an equal like anyone else, just going about my day

Fern Lulham:

and not being able to know where I am.

Fern Lulham:

Just the fact that I don't know what I'm doing.

Fern Lulham:

I'd feel like I doubt myself.

Fern Lulham:

Now, my self-esteem is on the floor, and these are things

Fern Lulham:

that can stay with us for years.

Adam Endacott:

Welcome to Where it's AT.

Adam Endacott:

The podcast from CIAT shining a spotlight on the future focused design

Adam Endacott:

discipline of architectural technology.

Adam Endacott:

Know someone who could benefit from listening.

Adam Endacott:

Subscribe and share this episode with your network.

Adam Endacott:

Tom Gray MCIAT: I'm Tom Gray, a chartered architectural technologist, and your host.

Adam Endacott:

For today's episode, we're going to talk about something that often gets

Adam Endacott:

overlooked in design conversations.

Adam Endacott:

How the spaces we create can either include or exclude, empower or overwhelm.

Adam Endacott:

I'm very lucky today to be joined by Fern Lulin, a psychotherapist

Adam Endacott:

speaker, and BBC broadcaster who has worked across many platforms.

Adam Endacott:

She also happens to be blind, and she's going to bring to this conversation a

Adam Endacott:

wealth of her experience within the world.

Adam Endacott:

We're going to look at the insights that she has and the topics of inclusive

Adam Endacott:

design and how the messages we absorb as people and as professionals shape the

Adam Endacott:

way that we see the world and each other.

Adam Endacott:

The conversation is going to be much about the accessibility and also identity

Adam Endacott:

and belonging and what it really means to design spaces and work for everyone.

Adam Endacott:

So let's get started and welcome, confirm.

Adam Endacott:

Thank you for joining us at where it's at.

Fern Lulham:

Thank you for having me.

Fern Lulham:

It's a pleasure to be here, Tom.

Fern Lulham:

Tom Gray MCIAT: No, it is great to have you, and thank you for taking

Fern Lulham:

the time to be with us today.

Fern Lulham:

Let's start at the beginning.

Fern Lulham:

What kind of message did you hear growing up about who you could be and

Fern Lulham:

how do you think those shaped you as a person and what you have become for?

Fern Lulham:

Oh, well, I think we all have messages, don't we?

Fern Lulham:

Around who we feel like we can be when we grow up.

Fern Lulham:

And they're usually given to us by authority figures, either

Fern Lulham:

caregivers, parents, teachers, all of the adults, basically, that

Fern Lulham:

are around us when we are young.

Fern Lulham:

And I think for me, as a blind little girl, I was always taught

Fern Lulham:

you are no different to anyone else.

Fern Lulham:

And that was a message that was very heavily instilled in me

Fern Lulham:

and I think has kind of echoed around my mind for many years.

Fern Lulham:

And I think that's what happens to all of us.

Fern Lulham:

These messages really stay with us and we hear them years on, and I

Fern Lulham:

think there was two parts of that.

Fern Lulham:

One part of that is that it's made me very resilient and determined and you

Fern Lulham:

know, it's given me that attitude of.

Fern Lulham:

You shouldn't settle for less.

Fern Lulham:

You shouldn't be second best.

Fern Lulham:

You shouldn't feel like you are any less worthy than anyone else.

Fern Lulham:

But at the same time, of course, I do have obvious differences between me

Fern Lulham:

and other people in that I can't see.

Fern Lulham:

And.

Fern Lulham:

I understand why people say, don't feel like you're any different because

Fern Lulham:

in terms of how much I can bring to the world or how valuable I am, I

Fern Lulham:

don't think there's any difference.

Fern Lulham:

But there is difference in how I need to navigate the world and how I

Fern Lulham:

need to do things that work for me.

Fern Lulham:

And I think as time goes by, we're getting better and better at saying.

Fern Lulham:

Not everyone will do things the same way.

Fern Lulham:

There's not one size that fits all.

Fern Lulham:

You know, we have different learning styles, we have different love languages,

Fern Lulham:

we have neurodivergence, you know, different ways of looking at the

Fern Lulham:

world, and I think that should be fine.

Fern Lulham:

And so in that sense, I think what really needs to happen is that there

Fern Lulham:

needs to be more options in the world.

Fern Lulham:

Because then even if you have a different way of needing to do something, it

Fern Lulham:

doesn't mean that you can't do that thing.

Fern Lulham:

And I think for me, growing up as a disabled person, a lot of the time

Fern Lulham:

it's kind of been like, well, if you can't do it the way that everyone

Fern Lulham:

can do it, then you can't do it.

Fern Lulham:

Full stop.

Fern Lulham:

And I think that's the thing that needs to change is if we have more options and

Fern Lulham:

different ways of doing things, it means that more people can be successful and

Fern Lulham:

can, can kind of challenge those messages that they were given growing up about who

Fern Lulham:

can be capable, who can be successful, who can reach their full potential in life.

Fern Lulham:

Tom Gray MCIAT: So, so would you say that when you were younger, that you

Fern Lulham:

were less aware of it and is only as you become older that you've been more,

Fern Lulham:

become more aware of the significant differences versus other people.

Fern Lulham:

I think it definitely does come with hindsight.

Fern Lulham:

I think when you look back, you probably do notice and

Fern Lulham:

realize things that at the time.

Fern Lulham:

Went a bit over your head.

Fern Lulham:

And I think when we can acknowledge that and can kind of almost tell ourselves

Fern Lulham:

the things that we needed to hear at that age, which for me very much is this

Fern Lulham:

idea of just because you can't do it the way that everyone else can do it doesn't

Fern Lulham:

mean there's something wrong with you.

Fern Lulham:

'cause I think there was a lot of shame for me around.

Fern Lulham:

Well, there's something that I can't do that somebody else can do.

Fern Lulham:

That means I must be not as good as them, or I must be just not as cool, or I

Fern Lulham:

don't understand the world that they do.

Fern Lulham:

And it wasn't that at all.

Fern Lulham:

It was just a lack of accessibility.

Fern Lulham:

And when I've kind of realized that and found different ways

Fern Lulham:

to make things accessible now.

Fern Lulham:

I've realized that what I needed was for someone to come in and say, actually

Fern Lulham:

you do do things a bit differently.

Fern Lulham:

That's okay.

Fern Lulham:

That doesn't make you any less than, but it just means that we need to

Fern Lulham:

find ways together to try and make this in a way that will work for you.

Fern Lulham:

Tom Gray MCIAT: Sure.

Fern Lulham:

No, of course.

Fern Lulham:

No.

Fern Lulham:

Makes sense.

Fern Lulham:

You've spoken before about loneliness as a gap between who we thought

Fern Lulham:

we'd be and who we actually are.

Fern Lulham:

This all really struck a chord with me.

Fern Lulham:

Can you sort of tell me a little bit about the idea and, and

Fern Lulham:

how you've experienced this?

Fern Lulham:

Yeah, absolutely.

Fern Lulham:

I think, again, there is this image in all of our minds

Fern Lulham:

about who we'd most like to be.

Fern Lulham:

So that might be to do with how successful we are, or how socially adept we are,

Fern Lulham:

or how easily we move through the world.

Fern Lulham:

For me, as I've lost more and more of my vision.

Fern Lulham:

I have found myself reaching and longing for the version of myself who

Fern Lulham:

can see and wondering who she would be because I was born visually impaired,

Fern Lulham:

and as I've grown older, my sight has just deteriorated more and more.

Fern Lulham:

And so I've never known a 2020 vision fern, and I always wonder.

Fern Lulham:

How would she be in the world?

Fern Lulham:

You know, she'd be able to recognize people from across the road.

Fern Lulham:

She'd be able to drive a car, she'd be able to do these things that as

Fern Lulham:

somebody who can't see I really struggle to do or, or you know, sometimes

Fern Lulham:

are just impossible for me to do.

Fern Lulham:

And I find myself.

Fern Lulham:

Really wishing I could know her and could experience the world the

Fern Lulham:

way that she would experience it.

Fern Lulham:

And sometimes that can be really sad.

Fern Lulham:

And I definitely have learned to allow myself that grief, that kind

Fern Lulham:

of, I'm never gonna be that person.

Fern Lulham:

But other times what I've realized is that actually a lot of the things

Fern Lulham:

that I think about when I think about sighted Fern are emotions.

Fern Lulham:

They are kind of.

Fern Lulham:

Things like she'd be confident or she would be adventurous or she would be able

Fern Lulham:

to see people and she'd be able to talk to them and, and kind of like be part of

Fern Lulham:

something and feel invited in something.

Fern Lulham:

And what it occurs to me is that all of those things actually are not things

Fern Lulham:

that I couldn't have just as I am, but it does require the world to be.

Fern Lulham:

Made for me, you know, made with me in mind because I can reach all of those

Fern Lulham:

things being a blind person, but it just requires a little bit more thought

Fern Lulham:

and a little bit more change in the way that we do things to make that possible.

Fern Lulham:

Tom Gray MCIAT: But then I guess equally at the same time, if we sort

Fern Lulham:

of loop back to the idea of that being the person that you'd like to

Fern Lulham:

experience, what they would be had they not had the disability that you have.

Fern Lulham:

I. You, you might be disappointed because that person might not have

Fern Lulham:

actually achieved all the amazing things that you do now, and that actually

Fern Lulham:

your, your disability, your visual impairment has, has made you who you are.

Fern Lulham:

You wouldn't be the fern that we all know.

Fern Lulham:

That's very true and very sweet of you, Tom.

Fern Lulham:

goodness.

Fern Lulham:

Maybe some people are thinking that I wouldn't be.

Fern Lulham:

Um, but what I would say is that, yes, I think the thing about the ideal, the.

Fern Lulham:

Ideal version of yourself versus the real version of yourself is that you

Fern Lulham:

only see parts of that person, don't you?

Fern Lulham:

We all say, oh, wouldn't it be amazing if I was, if I looked like that, or if

Fern Lulham:

I could do this, or, you know, whatever it might be, I had this much money.

Fern Lulham:

And we don't think of that person as a well-rounded human because of

Fern Lulham:

course you are completely right.

Fern Lulham:

There would be aspects of that person that actually we don't like.

Fern Lulham:

Maybe being rich would make us.

Fern Lulham:

Into a type of person that actually is not such a nice person.

Fern Lulham:

You know, whatever that might be.

Fern Lulham:

But I think what the important thing here, and what I kind of want to emphasize is

Fern Lulham:

that the aspects, the best parts of what I see when I think about the person who

Fern Lulham:

could see are things that I could have.

Fern Lulham:

If only they were accessible to me, and so there are ways of actually achieving that.

Fern Lulham:

It's a beautiful kind of freedom thing where I could think,

Fern Lulham:

I'm never gonna know her.

Fern Lulham:

I'm never gonna be her and just sink into depression because of that.

Fern Lulham:

Or I can think maybe I can be her.

Fern Lulham:

Maybe I can be those amazing parts of her that I long for in

Fern Lulham:

this body, just the way I am.

Fern Lulham:

Tom Gray MCIAT: So, yeah, and I, I think that's a really important point

Fern Lulham:

actually, is that there's nothing stopping you, well, the, the, there is

Fern Lulham:

within the built environment potentially, but in theory there isn't things that

Fern Lulham:

are stopping you fulfilling as close a reality in your mind as to what

Fern Lulham:

Fern would be with the 2020 vision.

Fern Lulham:

At the end of the day.

Fern Lulham:

And so I guess from a listener's point of view and what, while our listeners

Fern Lulham:

to this podcast might not be aware of, is effectively the challenges

Fern Lulham:

that you come across during navigating the built environment and the sort

Fern Lulham:

of the things that I don't consider when I'm walking down the road.

Fern Lulham:

I might be quite happily designing within my practice these certain

Fern Lulham:

things for a building, but I don't really appreciate how these affect.

Fern Lulham:

Affect you and other people.

Fern Lulham:

And, and what can be quite simply a, a strike of a pen or a pencil

Fern Lulham:

is, is potentially life changing or completely transforms the way

Fern Lulham:

you can actually access something.

Fern Lulham:

And, and what are your sort of thoughts on that and, and what are

Fern Lulham:

your experiences of, of that scenario?

Fern Lulham:

I would say navigating the world as someone who can't see is like

Fern Lulham:

this ongoing trust, this ongoing feeling of I have to trust that things are where

Fern Lulham:

I expect them to be because of course, as you can imagine, if you can't see.

Fern Lulham:

You kind of just have to take a leap of faith in some regards and you kind

Fern Lulham:

of get to know certain roots, certain places that you are familiar with, and

Fern Lulham:

those things need to be as predictable.

Fern Lulham:

As possible for me so that I can feel like, oh, I know what I'm doing.

Fern Lulham:

I know where I am here.

Fern Lulham:

I'm not gonna be all of a sudden accosted with some random step

Fern Lulham:

or a glass door that I can't see.

Fern Lulham:

And I, and so that is so important to.

Fern Lulham:

Feel that I have been seen and I have been considered in this space where people have

Fern Lulham:

expected me to be here and imagined me being here and thought if I was in that

Fern Lulham:

position with having very little sight, what would I need and how would I feel?

Fern Lulham:

And I think that makes the most difference because you talk about challenges.

Fern Lulham:

And of course there are the practical challenges.

Fern Lulham:

You know, let's think real world stuff here.

Fern Lulham:

So if I'm walking along a pavement and there's bins everywhere, of course

Fern Lulham:

it's bin day and all of us know it's an obstacle course right on bin day.

Fern Lulham:

And for me that

Fern Lulham:

is

Fern Lulham:

so.

Fern Lulham:

Anxiety provoking.

Fern Lulham:

I mean, it injures me physically, but it also bruises my ego.

Fern Lulham:

Every time I go clanking into a bin very loud, you know, makes a big scene,

Fern Lulham:

everyone's kind of like, oh, oh dear.

Fern Lulham:

Do you need some help?

Fern Lulham:

You know, as nice as they can be about it, I am horrified as all of us are.

Fern Lulham:

You know, you don't have to not have sight to know what that's like to

Fern Lulham:

publicly, publicly humiliate yourself.

Fern Lulham:

And so I think.

Fern Lulham:

The biggest challenge for me is that emotional barrier of not just what is

Fern Lulham:

the physical thing here that's causing me pain or causing me frustration, but also

Fern Lulham:

how does it make me feel about myself?

Fern Lulham:

And I think sometimes we can be so.

Fern Lulham:

Intent on creating buildings that are impressive, that are kind of functional

Fern Lulham:

and practical, or that look beautiful, and we forget that actually the most

Fern Lulham:

important thing is to create buildings that just make people feel like

Fern Lulham:

they're enough just the way they are.

Fern Lulham:

And they're welcome here.

Fern Lulham:

Tom Gray MCIAT: Yeah.

Fern Lulham:

And, and they, they don't have to be challenged to be something they're

Fern Lulham:

not, to access it effectively.

Fern Lulham:

I mean, it, it brings on a great example, I think.

Fern Lulham:

So you and I were in London last week, which was a fantastic experience

Fern Lulham:

for a talk on equality and diversity and, uh, sort of site loss and,

Fern Lulham:

and how we can work for people.

Fern Lulham:

And it was only when we were walking back to the station that we came across

Fern Lulham:

a pedestrian crossing, which had the tactile paving on the side of the road.

Fern Lulham:

So we were very much aware that we were coming to a crossing,

Fern Lulham:

but there they had a, a big, uh.

Fern Lulham:

Inspection chamber, a manhole cover that was in front of a tactile paving

Fern Lulham:

that actually had no tactile paving on.

Fern Lulham:

So it's just even simple things that, that they, they were remiss in actually

Fern Lulham:

kind of designing in a solution for if you having to be standing in that part, you

Fern Lulham:

wouldn't have known as a crossing there.

Fern Lulham:

Exactly, and what a good example of how, where such a small thing

Fern Lulham:

can actually have a huge impact on you.

Fern Lulham:

Because that makes the difference between me effortlessly being able to cross

Fern Lulham:

the road and feeling like an equal like anyone else, just going about my day and.

Fern Lulham:

Not being able to know where I am, orientate myself, know that

Fern Lulham:

there's a busy road coming up and actually either getting into an awful

Fern Lulham:

accident or you know, potentially something really, really awful.

Fern Lulham:

Or just as you know, emotionally horrible.

Fern Lulham:

Just the fact that I don't know what I'm doing.

Fern Lulham:

I'd feel like I doubt myself.

Fern Lulham:

Now, my self-esteem is on the floor, and these are things

Fern Lulham:

that can stay with us for years.

Fern Lulham:

They can hang around just like those messages that we

Fern Lulham:

were talking about earlier.

Fern Lulham:

Tom Gray MCIAT: Mm. Yeah.

Fern Lulham:

No, absolutely.

Fern Lulham:

And, and that's something that's really reflected I think throughout all

Fern Lulham:

your conversations and, and all your sort of audiences that you speak to

Fern Lulham:

across the country and, and actually across the world with some of the

Fern Lulham:

radio shows you're involved with.

Fern Lulham:

You, you, you talk with such passion and confidence around the subject, but.

Fern Lulham:

From a sort of a reality point of view.

Fern Lulham:

We talk about tactile paving, but you, you've often discussed the, the issues

Fern Lulham:

of like just a poorly designed public toilet and how it can be so uncomfortable

Fern Lulham:

for you in terms of both emotionally and, and sort of physically using this space.

Fern Lulham:

And so what that says about the sort of process of design, I mean, how, how

Fern Lulham:

do you deal with those situations where every facility could be different?

Fern Lulham:

It is very difficult.

Fern Lulham:

And what I will say is that I'm sure, uh, everyone listening will

Fern Lulham:

agree that a poorly designed toilet is uncomfortable for anyone who has

Fern Lulham:

the misfortune of having to use it because, um, you know, it's, uh,

Fern Lulham:

it's not a good experience is it?

Fern Lulham:

Especially if the toilet itself is poorly designed.

Fern Lulham:

But what I would say is that.

Fern Lulham:

Unpredictability.

Fern Lulham:

It is kind of what I was saying earlier about the, the thing about public

Fern Lulham:

toilets is everything is so different every single time you go into one.

Fern Lulham:

So the flush will be in a different place.

Fern Lulham:

The LU paper will be in a different place.

Fern Lulham:

The sink will.

Fern Lulham:

I dunno, how do you use a sink?

Fern Lulham:

I recently was shouting through a toilet door to you about not knowing

Fern Lulham:

how to put the tap on, because there's a million different ways of doing it.

Fern Lulham:

Sometimes they have senses, sometimes there's a knob who know, you know, like

Fern Lulham:

we just don't, we, we, there's just a

Fern Lulham:

Tom Gray MCIAT: Absolutely.

Fern Lulham:

And, and,

Fern Lulham:

and even like in that scenario, the sink was white and the

Fern Lulham:

rest of the room was white.

Fern Lulham:

So you can actually find the sink, let alone the tap itself.

Fern Lulham:

Yes, exactly.

Fern Lulham:

And that again, is really hard when the room just kind of blurs into each other.

Fern Lulham:

It's very difficult to know where you are.

Fern Lulham:

And it's interesting that you talk about, you know, me sort of talking

Fern Lulham:

to people doing speeches and doing radio shows and things like that.

Fern Lulham:

And these are things that often I think people get so nervous about.

Fern Lulham:

And so.

Fern Lulham:

Anxious about and think like, how can you talk in front of all these people?

Fern Lulham:

I couldn't do that in a million years.

Fern Lulham:

And I think that about just popping to the loo.

Fern Lulham:

You know?

Fern Lulham:

I just think I can't go into a public bathroom and not feel flushed with this

Fern Lulham:

anxiety of how am I gonna manage this?

Fern Lulham:

And is this going to be a situation where I'm gonna be happily, you know,

Fern Lulham:

let's say I'm going shopping with my friends, feeling good about myself.

Fern Lulham:

Pop to the loo, come out and just feel like I am incapable, I'm disabled.

Fern Lulham:

It really does make a difference and this is where design can either really

Fern Lulham:

empower you to feel like I am capable and I can do this, and you know,

Fern Lulham:

have a completely different mindset.

Fern Lulham:

Or it can just deepen this disconnection between you and the rest of the world,

Fern Lulham:

and sometimes even you and yourself, you know that self, that I want to be

Fern Lulham:

that confident, capable self because it's just in the difference, like you

Fern Lulham:

said, of somebody just not considering.

Fern Lulham:

What would it be like in this space if I couldn't see?

Fern Lulham:

And that is the difference that it makes.

Fern Lulham:

And I just want to, you know, say to any architects, any designers who are

Fern Lulham:

listening, your work matters so much, and it does make such a big difference.

Fern Lulham:

So please, please consider these things.

Adam Endacott:

Know someone with a story to tell or a topic to

Adam Endacott:

explore email atpodcast@ciat.global to nominate a guest or a topic.

Adam Endacott:

Tom Gray MCIAT: Absolutely.

Adam Endacott:

And uh, so.

Adam Endacott:

You our, our sort friendship goes back a few years now, but, uh, it

Adam Endacott:

was only when we first met that I really sort of understood the real

Adam Endacott:

practicalities of why things are designed and there's regulations in

Adam Endacott:

place to, to make life livable for you and others in with all sorts of.

Adam Endacott:

Sort of specialist requirements that might be needed.

Adam Endacott:

And it's just very simple things that we need to consider.

Adam Endacott:

And so I, I guess from that point of view, you sort of, that you sort

Adam Endacott:

of have touched on, I suppose, the curiosity and, and the courage that

Adam Endacott:

you have to experience when potentially going into these spaces, whether it

Adam Endacott:

be aloo or into a new space somewhere you haven't been before and that your.

Adam Endacott:

There's obviously a connection and a key to changing how we design these things,

Adam Endacott:

and you can sort of break down what this might look like in terms of like the

Adam Endacott:

real life and, and how this could work.

Adam Endacott:

But what sort of things do you think are some of the, uh, I guess, we should be

Adam Endacott:

considering to do or, or to be mindful of?

Fern Lulham:

yeah, I think there are a few.

Fern Lulham:

Parts to this.

Fern Lulham:

For me, creativity comes in kind of a, there's almost sort of like

Fern Lulham:

three C's to creativity I suppose.

Fern Lulham:

One of them, like you said, is curiosity.

Fern Lulham:

And curiosity for me is about how can we do this differently?

Fern Lulham:

Because I think maybe it's just human nature that we.

Fern Lulham:

Decide on a way of doing something and we don't wanna change it, right?

Fern Lulham:

If anyone comes in and says, oh, maybe we are gonna change the system

Fern Lulham:

at work in the office, you know, you're just like, no, I don't.

Fern Lulham:

I know what I'm doing.

Fern Lulham:

Please don't.

Fern Lulham:

And actually curiosity is saying, but is there a better way?

Fern Lulham:

Is there a way that actually will benefit everyone?

Fern Lulham:

And this is something that I want to emphasize is that, yes, it's good

Fern Lulham:

for me as a disabled person, but actually making inclusive design

Fern Lulham:

is good for everyone because.

Fern Lulham:

There is just so much more access that the world can have to talent,

Fern Lulham:

to skills, to opportunities to money.

Fern Lulham:

You know, disabled people have a lot of money to spend and yes, maybe it might

Fern Lulham:

mean taking a little bit more time or spending a little bit more money to

Fern Lulham:

design the environment that will work for everyone, but it is gonna pay off in

Fern Lulham:

spades and it really, really makes a lot of difference just to be able to say.

Fern Lulham:

Well, we've never done it like this before, but maybe we can give it a go.

Fern Lulham:

And that leads me on to courage because like you said,

Fern Lulham:

courage is a big part of this.

Fern Lulham:

And to be able to make that leap of faith and say, okay, I'm going to give it a go

Fern Lulham:

even though I don't know what I'm doing.

Fern Lulham:

Maybe courage is just admitting I don't know what I'm doing.

Fern Lulham:

And actually I need a bit of guidance on this.

Fern Lulham:

And I think, you know, we talked earlier about some of what happened

Fern Lulham:

to me growing up and I think.

Fern Lulham:

Even when, even as an adult now, but especially growing up, you are kind of

Fern Lulham:

mollycoddled a little bit sometimes when you have a disability, or at least I was

Fern Lulham:

in my experience, where people want to do things for you and they want to just

Fern Lulham:

like swoop into the rescue and be like, oh, don't worry, I've sorted it out.

Fern Lulham:

Uh, sometimes when I'm out with my guide dog, Nancy, and people offer

Fern Lulham:

to pick up her poo, I'm very tempted to let them just take them up on that

Fern Lulham:

offer and just go, yeah, no, go for it.

Fern Lulham:

That's fine.

Fern Lulham:

But actually that's not helping, especially you, Tom.

Fern Lulham:

Um, that's not helping either of us.

Fern Lulham:

Is it because I'm then still stuck in the place where I can't do it?

Fern Lulham:

You are then having to do it all for me and resenting me.

Fern Lulham:

'cause now you have to do it.

Fern Lulham:

It's not good for either of us.

Fern Lulham:

And actually the best way forward is to say, I'm just gonna sit with you

Fern Lulham:

in this discomfort of your struggle and let's figure out together.

Fern Lulham:

How we can get through this.

Fern Lulham:

Like is there a way that we can do this and make it easier

Fern Lulham:

for you to, to sort it out?

Fern Lulham:

Because then we are both learning together, and I don't have to explain to

Fern Lulham:

you so much what it is that we've come up with because we've co-created it.

Fern Lulham:

You know, we've collaboratively come up with it.

Fern Lulham:

And that leads me on really nicely to connection because I

Fern Lulham:

think there is such a lack of.

Fern Lulham:

Connected thinking around this where we need to work together more.

Fern Lulham:

I saw a statistic that was from the 2021 government census and

Fern Lulham:

it said that 6% of people who who are architects are disabled.

Fern Lulham:

So that means that you know, over 90% are not, and.

Fern Lulham:

That doesn't correlate because you know, there's 25% of people in the UK have

Fern Lulham:

a disability, and so why is there such a lack of disability in architecture?

Fern Lulham:

I think that as somebody who is renovating a house at the moment and.

Fern Lulham:

I'm having to sort of learn how things work and, and trying to figure out

Fern Lulham:

plans and all that kind of stuff.

Fern Lulham:

It's all visual stuff, stuff that I can't access.

Fern Lulham:

And when I'm in that situation and everyone else is talking about, oh, well

Fern Lulham:

we could put this here and we can put, you know, do that there and this color and

Fern Lulham:

that, and I am just standing there like.

Fern Lulham:

This is my house and I can't have a say in any of it.

Fern Lulham:

I feel completely alone.

Fern Lulham:

I feel so alone.

Fern Lulham:

And I think we've all been in rooms where we've heard other people having

Fern Lulham:

conversations and it's almost like you are looking through a window and

Fern Lulham:

going, oh, that's what connection looks like and I'm not part of it.

Fern Lulham:

And that sends another huge message to you.

Fern Lulham:

Where actually what we should be striving for is how can we do this as a team?

Fern Lulham:

How can you use, you know, the knowledge that I have from my lived experience, but

Fern Lulham:

also maybe some of the skills that I have.

Fern Lulham:

Because we shouldn't just be assuming that just because somebody has a disability,

Fern Lulham:

they're not capable of certain things.

Fern Lulham:

You know, let's talk about that and let's find ways.

Fern Lulham:

To create built environments that work for everyone by including

Fern Lulham:

everyone, not just as an end user, but as part of that process.

Fern Lulham:

Tom Gray MCIAT: No.

Fern Lulham:

Absolutely.

Fern Lulham:

Absolutely.

Fern Lulham:

I think, I think you've sort of, sort of really sort of explained that and,

Fern Lulham:

and I guess there's, there's lots.

Fern Lulham:

You were in a position where.

Fern Lulham:

You were born with, uh, with sort of sight loss and, but there's lots

Fern Lulham:

of scenarios where people won't have sight loss and will be using a building

Fern Lulham:

or a space and then through maybe an accident or ill health or whatever

Fern Lulham:

reason, they then lose their eyesight.

Fern Lulham:

And then will, do they then, should they be excluded from the building they've

Fern Lulham:

always used or that particular space?

Fern Lulham:

It's, it's thinking long term, isn't it?

Fern Lulham:

And not just short term of people who have it currently.

Fern Lulham:

Uh, an issue with sight loss.

Fern Lulham:

So, no, that's, that's really interesting.

Fern Lulham:

And I guess also from that point of view, if you could change one thing about how

Fern Lulham:

designers think or work, what would it be?

Fern Lulham:

I mean, would it be effectively.

Fern Lulham:

How we build the world and how do we make people feel belonged in it?

Fern Lulham:

Is it, is it more sort of a, a basic thing like a, an improved toilet arrangement.

Fern Lulham:

A standard toilet that is the same wherever you go in the world or

Fern Lulham:

wherever it is in this country?

Fern Lulham:

Well, you know that I love a good toilet, Tom.

Fern Lulham:

That's very, very,

Fern Lulham:

important.

Fern Lulham:

Um, I think that's the most important thing maybe to come

Fern Lulham:

out of this conversation.

Fern Lulham:

You never know.

Fern Lulham:

But what I would say is that you, you just talked, just wanna quickly

Fern Lulham:

just touch on what you said about if you gain a disability, it is.

Fern Lulham:

Something that happens a lot to people.

Fern Lulham:

Um, in fact, most people who have a disability were not born with it.

Fern Lulham:

They acquired it.

Fern Lulham:

And what you find is that you are still, you, you are not all

Fern Lulham:

of a sudden this alien person.

Fern Lulham:

You are the person who likes what you like on tv.

Fern Lulham:

You are the person who still likes the same hobbies, who

Fern Lulham:

still has the same friends, who still lives in the same house.

Fern Lulham:

You are still you.

Fern Lulham:

But now you just have to navigate the world differently.

Fern Lulham:

And so in terms of your question of what would I say to designers, it's this.

Fern Lulham:

It's in our busy world where we all have a million different things going on, and

Fern Lulham:

our to-do list is just out the back door.

Fern Lulham:

It's just forever long.

Fern Lulham:

I think we all need to take a moment and just say to ourselves.

Fern Lulham:

How do I feel in this space?

Fern Lulham:

And not just consider how I feel in this space, but also consider how

Fern Lulham:

would somebody else feel and, you know, sort of think about different

Fern Lulham:

scenarios because like I said earlier.

Fern Lulham:

It's not so much the practical experience, although of course that

Fern Lulham:

comes into it and plays a big part, but it is, do I feel like I belong here?

Fern Lulham:

Do I feel welcome?

Fern Lulham:

Is it like someone's coming to the door and saying, Hey,

Fern Lulham:

we've been waiting for you.

Fern Lulham:

Come on in.

Fern Lulham:

Or is it like, I'm in this space?

Fern Lulham:

We're actually.

Fern Lulham:

I don't actually think they want me here.

Fern Lulham:

This is kind of awkward.

Fern Lulham:

Maybe I should leave.

Fern Lulham:

Maybe I should just stand in the corner.

Fern Lulham:

Or maybe I'm being made to feel like, well, you should just

Fern Lulham:

be grateful that you are here.

Fern Lulham:

I don't, you know, I've not actually gone above and beyond

Fern Lulham:

to make it comfortable for you.

Fern Lulham:

You should just be pleased that you are on the guest list at all.

Fern Lulham:

Those are messages we don't wanna be giving to people, and so I

Fern Lulham:

think just taking that moment to take a breath and just think.

Fern Lulham:

How do I feel in this space?

Fern Lulham:

How does it make me feel if I couldn't see, for example, or any kind of

Fern Lulham:

scenario you want to come up with.

Fern Lulham:

Would I feel safe here?

Fern Lulham:

Would I feel like I can be me here?

Fern Lulham:

And kind of connect to the values of why you became an architect

Fern Lulham:

or a designer in the first place.

Fern Lulham:

Why am I doing this?

Fern Lulham:

What is important to me and how can I bring that into the work

Fern Lulham:

that I do on an everyday basis?

Fern Lulham:

And I think when we can do that, when we can kind of just take that beat.

Fern Lulham:

To stop and to say what is actually important here.

Fern Lulham:

That's when we open this key to belonging, to making people

Fern Lulham:

feel like this feels right.

Fern Lulham:

This feels like I can actually be the person that I want to be, the

Fern Lulham:

person that I've long for, for so long because we we're considering.

Fern Lulham:

What is that emotional impact of what I'm building here and is what I'm building

Fern Lulham:

here going to make somebody feel like they can access this space just like

Fern Lulham:

anyone else can, and that we can connect to each other and work together to make

Fern Lulham:

things as good as they can possibly be.

Fern Lulham:

Tom Gray MCIAT: Yeah, I mean, I think as designers, as, as

Fern Lulham:

architectural technologists, architects, interior designers and

Fern Lulham:

so on, there's such a big emphasis on this whole theory of way finding.

Fern Lulham:

So the idea that if you go into an airport, that you will be able

Fern Lulham:

to find your way by reading signs to get from the car park straight

Fern Lulham:

through to your actual airplane.

Fern Lulham:

But.

Fern Lulham:

The reality is that's all well and good way finding to the, to,

Fern Lulham:

to make it amazing for everyone.

Fern Lulham:

But it's not for everyone.

Fern Lulham:

Is it because someone like you way finding is, is lost in the

Fern Lulham:

conventional way, isn't it?

Fern Lulham:

I mean, I've been lost in many airports before and it

Fern Lulham:

hasn't been a fun experience.

Fern Lulham:

Yes.

Fern Lulham:

Uh, so I'm surprised that I made it home, but by hook or by crook, I found my way.

Fern Lulham:

But yes, it would be very much appreciated if that was just an

Fern Lulham:

experience that I could do with less anxiety that I could just find my way.

Fern Lulham:

I mean, how proud would I feel?

Fern Lulham:

It might sound stupid, but I would actually feel really.

Fern Lulham:

Proud of myself.

Fern Lulham:

If I navigated an airport or by myself and felt independent in that,

Fern Lulham:

that would mean the world to me.

Fern Lulham:

It would make a huge, huge

Fern Lulham:

difference.

Fern Lulham:

Tom Gray MCIAT: Yeah.

Fern Lulham:

Yeah.

Fern Lulham:

And I remember before you used the scenario of actually the moment

Fern Lulham:

you arrive at an airport and you sign up to be, uh, sign up.

Fern Lulham:

That's probably not the right term, but when you, when you're booking your

Fern Lulham:

tickets and you refer to being a disabled individual, it doesn't give you the option

Fern Lulham:

to state and say what a disability is and say they automatically come along with

Fern Lulham:

the wheelchair or, or the cart to whiz you across, and you end up missing the

Fern Lulham:

other experiences within the airport.

Fern Lulham:

Yes, I've been wheeled around airports many times and, uh, feeling like

Fern Lulham:

a little old granny at the age of 20, you know, in a, in a, in a wheelchair.

Fern Lulham:

So, yeah, it's, uh, it's right though.

Fern Lulham:

I mean, it, it would be lovely to be able to again, just participate in

Fern Lulham:

the shops and the restaurants, which.

Fern Lulham:

It sounds, you know, on the surface of it is so trivial, and yet when you

Fern Lulham:

actually think about it, the message that that gives you, can I participate

Fern Lulham:

in the shops and the restaurants and everything that everyone else is doing.

Fern Lulham:

That means something to how do I feel about myself and how do I feel about the

Fern Lulham:

rest of the world and how they view me.

Fern Lulham:

Tom Gray MCIAT: Sure.

Fern Lulham:

Yeah.

Fern Lulham:

No, absolutely.

Fern Lulham:

Well, look, fan, I've really enjoyed speaking to you today.

Fern Lulham:

It has been amazing and I, I, I really do believe in everything that you do in terms

Fern Lulham:

of trying to promote this to the wider world and to express your experiences.

Fern Lulham:

Um, but before we just come to, to the end of it, I also wanted to ask

Fern Lulham:

if there's anything further that you wanted to add, that you wanted

Fern Lulham:

to say or, or sort leave us with as a bit of a closing message Really.

Fern Lulham:

From your experiences or how you see the world.

Fern Lulham:

I would just say that I think all of us can connect with

Fern Lulham:

this on one level or another, and I think the reason that I've tried to

Fern Lulham:

emphasize kind of the very human, very real, raw experiences of how.

Fern Lulham:

It actually feels to be in these situations is because I think that's

Fern Lulham:

something that everyone can connect with.

Fern Lulham:

And I think that all of us have something, you know, it might not be

Fern Lulham:

a disability, it might be whatever situation you find yourself in that

Fern Lulham:

influences how you are in the world.

Fern Lulham:

And I think.

Fern Lulham:

This goes deeper than just how are you gonna build a building?

Fern Lulham:

It is what messages do we want to put out there in the world about who is included,

Fern Lulham:

who should feel like they belong?

Fern Lulham:

And surely for all of us, that message is everyone we want.

Fern Lulham:

Everyone to feel like they belong because then we can get closer, not just to who we

Fern Lulham:

want to be ourselves, but to each other.

Fern Lulham:

And I think when we get closer to each other, we create a world where everyone

Fern Lulham:

can feel just a little bit less alone.

Fern Lulham:

Tom Gray MCIAT: Yeah.

Fern Lulham:

No, absolutely.

Fern Lulham:

And thank you again for.

Fern Lulham:

For sharing your sort of story with us.

Fern Lulham:

We, we have really enjoyed the whole process of, of, of working with you

Fern Lulham:

with CIAT, with, with talks and such like, and it's great to have you here

Fern Lulham:

on our podcast of, uh, where it's at and for giving us a fresh insight

Fern Lulham:

into it and how we need to think about design and effectively belonging.

Fern Lulham:

Really do appreciate it.

Fern Lulham:

And thank you again fe for all your time.

Fern Lulham:

Thank

Fern Lulham:

Thank you and thanks for all the work you do.

Adam Endacott:

You've been listening to where it's at.

Adam Endacott:

A huge thanks to our guests and to you for listening.

Adam Endacott:

Want to learn more about architectural technology, how to progress your

Adam Endacott:

career, or how to work with a chartered architectural technologist?

Adam Endacott:

Head to architectural technology.com to find out more.

Adam Endacott:

The contents and views expressed by individuals in the where it's at

Adam Endacott:

podcasts are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the

Adam Endacott:

companies they work for or the host.

Adam Endacott:

This podcast is for informational purposes only and should

Adam Endacott:

not be considered as advice.

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Where it's AT - the Architectural Technology podcast
The Architectural Technology podcast from CIAT. Celebrating the diversity of Architectural Technology, one episode at a time.

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